Not logged in, Join Here! or Log In Below:  
 
News Articles Search    
 


Submitted by Joaquin Gray, posted on March 12, 2002




Image Description, by Joaquin Gray



This is a shot of my third-of-the-way-done (mm-hmm) Windoze app which I have been working on for the last couple of weeks. As are many of you, I have been working my way towards a nice 3d game, but my main stumbling block came when I realized there wasn't any (imho) decent way to create level geometry; Radiant makes me feel icky, and my system as well. So here's the deal:
  • Loads quake3 style *.shader files and images directly from zip file (or pk3, whatever)
  • Loads 3DS and MD3 models (perhaps more later) for static geometry (can be exported as such, or just as bbox data)
  • Saves in proprietary format as well as user-definable text format (i.e. you could export easily right into q3map)
  • Simple CSG with brushes
  • Patch curves, with a variety of primitive basics (tubes, cones, etc)
  • Editable entities with user-definable text-entry fields
  • Object/face selecting
  • The general difference between this project and radiant is similar to the difference between Nendo and 3DStudio. My goal is to have a very easy interface as well as a heavily modifyable output for future use with any project as well as Quake3 level editing.

    If you have any suggestions or flame, feel free to email me. This project is geared towards anyone who wants such a tool.


    [prev]
    Image of the Day Gallery
    www.flipcode.com

    [next]

     
    Message Center / Reader Comments: ( To Participate in the Discussion, Join the Community )
     
    Archive Notice: This thread is old and no longer active. It is here for reference purposes. This thread was created on an older version of the flipcode forums, before the site closed in 2005. Please keep that in mind as you view this thread, as many of the topics and opinions may be outdated.
     
    Chris McArthur

    March 12, 2002, 11:27 AM

    nice man, looks sweet

     
    DirtySouthAfrican

    March 12, 2002, 11:33 AM

    Hey, I know you!

    Aren't you that cool guy who made that cool geometry editor? ;)

    I've long been looking for something that allows the lowest level possible of graphical manipulation of geometry, such as defining triangles and vertices directly, with isometric views. I find the penalty on my system of running things like 3D studio max are too high and a low-level editor would much better suit my needs w/o bells and whistles.

    Incidently, my comp isn't slow or anything. 3D studio is just, well, 3D studio ;)

     
    Bunnz

    March 12, 2002, 12:01 PM

    Looks really nice!

    Have fun
    Bunnz
    Visit: www.bunnz.com

     
    cgk

    March 12, 2002, 12:24 PM

    > The general difference between this
    > project and radiant is similar to the
    > difference between Nendo and 3DStudio.

    i guess you still have a looooooong way to go to reach the level of radiant with your editor ;).

     
    Hailed Guardian

    March 12, 2002, 12:42 PM

    looks promising... where is the link to demo/source/tutorial...???

     
    stefan/dxm

    March 12, 2002, 01:08 PM

    look a Windoze app whad if yah pal's with 1337 1!nuX is visiting you while yah c0d3 in wiNDOZE ?!

     
    Flawless

    March 12, 2002, 01:16 PM

    Thee'd probly flunq him :-)

    (wha' a' wier' way o' talking!)

     
    fatbuddha

    March 12, 2002, 03:00 PM

    Looks cool - but I wish that people would stop trying to make everything compatible with quake. It drives away too much of the creativity out of the end product. I just want games that are fun to play, and different from those that have been around for ages.

    Don't get me wrong - it's extremely fun and rewarding developing a nice and polished product like this. Full respect to you for that. I guess it's just that when I read a flipcode image of the days feature list, I want to find something new there. Selfish maybe.

    I want the game engine or whatever to lay the foundations for at least a slightly different type of game. The John-Cormac-FPS-Game is old, and everybody but the programmers seem to moving on...

    p.s. Just re-read what I've written, and that sounds way more harsh than I intended. :)

     
    ADVISOR

    March 12, 2002, 03:36 PM

    looks nice. where are the binaries ?

     
    coda

    March 12, 2002, 03:43 PM

    I hear that. Quake is so yesterday.

    Coda

     
    DEVLiN

    March 12, 2002, 03:56 PM

    Ehm... frankly I don't see how that post helps either the author of this fine IOTD or anyone else in general.

    It seems to be a nice application, and if you want a linux version (if not implemented by the original author) by all means make one yourself instead of ranting about it in here.

     
    =[Scarab]=

    March 12, 2002, 03:59 PM

    Have you ever tried Worldcraft? I found it to be a rather easy to use editor for level creation. And it's free. What are the key differences between your editor and Worldcraft? (Apart from those already listed of course. ;)

    The screenshot looks nice, though I'm missing the standard 2d views. I'm guessing they can be activated with a button/shortkey/menu?

     
    Professor Apparatus

    March 12, 2002, 04:21 PM

    I agree entirely with the fact that there is too much Quake3-like stuff going on, and it's slightly embarrassing to be a part of the crowd. However, I am essentially a beginner when it comes to 3d and Win programming. I spent ages attemping to learn D3D and finally discovered GL and have been able to actually spend time doing the fun part -- coding. This has only been the last several months, and what better way for me to learn than to copy the best (well, most popular? ;)

    As for the binaries/source.. I suppose I posted a little early as it's not quite ready for that kind of thing to float around. My humble apologies.

    P.S. My w0Nd3rfUl K0D3 experience happens to date back to the days of machine language on Vic-20's.

     
    akenny

    March 12, 2002, 05:40 PM

    I too would consider myself a beginner, but copying Quake isn't the best way to start. I know, I've been through that route and have only now reached the other side. Except I wasn't copying Quake, I was attempting to write a fully-fledged 3D engine without knowing much about anything.

    It seems that everyone sets there sights on the best, which is an admirable goal, but one that won't be reached until you've learnt the basics... the intermediates... the advanced... and put in some serious slog (and utilised a team of fellow programmers, artists...). And by that time, Quake will be comparable to the original Wolfenstein. Which is probably why most people aim at doing Quake-like stuff now.

    Anyway, back to my original point. If I'd forced myself to listen to what my common sense was telling me, I wouldn't have wasted 6 months messing about with something I could never do. The point being - start small.

    Oh, and back to the IOTD, which is what this thread is all about:

    - Are there options to display other viewports rather than the single perspective one shown in the image?

    Anyway, ramble over.

     
    TheRain

    March 12, 2002, 07:00 PM

    Well, consider how many of these indipendant 3d game projects never get finished... then consider how difficult it is to make content for a game engine. It's much more efficient for a single programmer to use creative content that already exists and concentrate on programming. I'm not sure that this guy is implementing anything other than shaders here though... so it's not really that relevant. I've never even messed with coding 3d graphics in least... but that is just how I see it from my narrow perspective.

     
    TheRain

    March 12, 2002, 07:02 PM

    sorry, didn't bother to read the full IOTD description. But still... it's just for efficiency. This IOTD forum isn't really for gamers looking for a cool free game that some guy's going to give to them... it's for people learning about game programming to comment, encourage, and help others who are working on projects.

     
    DogE.D

    March 12, 2002, 08:20 PM

    looks nice. I never had the patience to try and make a "proper" windows program.
    I think that useing Quake as a base is all well and good but it would be nice to see ppl extending on it rather than relying on it.
    Another suggestion... try Quark, http://www.planetquake.com/quark I think it's easyer than worldcraft and has it's own basic export/save format.

    Ben Gosney.

     
    grok

    March 12, 2002, 10:45 PM

    I just like to remark that one of the reasons there's so much quake like stuff out there is because id has made available more resources to the public than any other company( not even epic ).

    I wish blizzard especially would released more devloper resources, we'd see a lot of project looking like diablo or warcraft as well.

    Anyhow, the level editor really looks like a lot of work has gone into already so props to you Joaquin. : )

    Btw, you might wanna add in the option to create a brush of zero thickness so that your editor could be used as a portalizer as well.



     
    Luke Philpot

    March 13, 2002, 12:27 AM

    Sweet as!

     
    Kezza

    March 13, 2002, 01:45 AM

    This looks awsome, and if you implemented sotware shaders yourself.... man u are awsome. (and if you're feeling really nice can u tell me how the hell you manage to stick with a project this complex?)

    But I'd like to throw something else into the Q3 side topic :
    I don't know about anyone else, but I think one of the big problems holding games back is people use existing methods too much.

    I'm personally on the lookout for an alternative to BSP, because there has to be a 'better' way. Its not much more advanced than what we saw when we were first dazzeled (and given nightmares) by doom. Octrees and stuff are nice, but there has to be a way to get those lovely advantages that you get from binary splitting, without losing the ability to modify the geometry or have 'true' outdoor areas. I haven't been able to find much I'm a afraid, everyone just writes 'bout quad/octree, bsp and portal engines plus the occasional odd one like that layer system in drakkan. (kudos to people at pygnosis for that one)

    sorry for going off topic

     
    Zemedelec

    March 13, 2002, 04:14 AM

    Also, Oni uses low-res raytracing on octree.
    Many ppl said that the key to good (and flexible) engine is mixing...
    And what is wrong with BSP-s? Quake uses BSP only for transparent surfaces and CD.
    Unreal uses BSP more effectively at the cost of no PVS-ing the world, and I think that this is the way - nobody will run PVSs on huge tomorrow levels, even if CPUs gets faster.
    Another nice solution is dPVS (former Umbra)! Really great...
    Besides why you think that anything hold games back? These are not the methods, but inspiration maybe - because the art make the game, not the engine (well almost :)

     
    behemoth

    March 13, 2002, 04:49 AM

    Looks really nice!

    Have fun
    Bunnz Behemoth
    Visit: www.bunnz.com www.behemoth.com

     
    richard

    March 13, 2002, 06:39 AM

    lol

     
    Steve Streeting

    March 13, 2002, 08:32 AM

    I don't think there's anything wrong with looking at Quake3 for inspiration and exploring your own ideas. The thing is not to become fixated with it as 'the only way'. Architects study established designs before designing revolutionary buildings later in their careers, writers read all kinds of other books and perhaps experiment with typical styles before launching into something grand and epic. Learning, copying and evolving what exists already broadens your experience and teaches you what works and what could be done better.

    IMHO starting a 3D engine / game / any project at all with completely revolutionary concepts, without having done the more rudementary stuff is destined for failure. Even the best innovators move through traditional approaches before leaping into the unknown.

    In short, never dismiss what can be learned from 'old' engines (and I wouldn't call Quake3 old, but there we go). My engine renders Quake3 levels as a plugin - the engine architecture is not designed around the approach as many others are, but can accept dynamically loaded 'SceneManager' plugins to deal with different style scenes. I personally learned a lot from Doom and all the Quakes, but what I did learn is that I didn't want their approach to be central to the engine design. This is now my 4th or 5th 3D engine, and only now do I think I'm starting to get any good at it. ;)

     
    Beast

    March 13, 2002, 09:31 AM

    I completely agree. Everyone has to start somewhere and this post wasn't made by a beginner. Although I've never looked at it myself, with Quake's success and generousity, you can't argue that it's a perfect learning platform. Then again, from what I have seen, some of that C code reminds me of my high school programming adventures in C.

    On another note, I keep seeing all these postings by binary scavengers. Maybe I'm wrong but this is the image of the day, not the code of the day, section. If the author wanted to post code or demos then he or she would. Personally though, I'd love to see more screen shots just because I'd like to know more about its functionality, or maybe what a more detailed project from this editor would look like. Despite it's being world craft or radiant, neither of which I've used, it rocks because it was made with effort and a cool, creamy touch of love.

     
    Warren Marshall

    March 13, 2002, 09:55 AM

    "Then again, from what I have seen, some of that C code reminds me of my high school programming adventures in C."

    This is something that has always interested me ... Carmack's code is far from pretty. In fact, it's far from readable. People sometimes will bash it and complain and go into tirades about design and implementation, etc. But you know what? He's getting it -done-. He's shipping games while most people just talk about it.

    Something to ponder while you're agonizing over the perfect class hierarchy in your next engine. ;)

     
    Beast

    March 13, 2002, 02:49 PM

    I'd never argue that point. He is getting it done while most others are hobbyist, trying to find their niche. He just managed to be the pioneer rather than the code nibbling follower. I'm a big fan of the freedom that C offers over C++. C++ is a way of constrained thinking and binding rules when inexperienced hands wield its wand. C is a way of programming, clean, neat, simple. Although I use both professionally, now predominately C++, I still get a kick at the awesomeness and ease that came back in the day when writing games in assembly and pure C or Pascal ruled. My personal projects and first professional projects were pure C, not as readable as the C++ projects but that was the fault of legacy programmers... Once you work at a large scale game company and are forced to decipher 3 to 7 year old legacy code you start having vivid, real visions of things to be.

     
    Beast

    March 13, 2002, 02:49 PM

    I'd never argue that point. He is getting it done while most others are hobbyist, trying to find their niche. He just managed to be the pioneer rather than the code nibbling follower. I'm a big fan of the freedom that C offers over C++. C++ is a way of constrained thinking and binding rules when inexperienced hands wield its wand. C is a way of programming, clean, neat, simple. Although I use both professionally, now predominately C++, I still get a kick at the awesomeness and ease that came back in the day when writing games in assembly and pure C or Pascal ruled. My personal projects and first professional projects were pure C, not as readable as the C++ projects but that was the fault of legacy programmers... Once you work at a large scale game company and are forced to decipher 3 to 7 year old legacy code you start having vivid, real visions of things to be.

     
    TheDMan

    March 20, 2002, 05:55 AM

    Nice one dude. Way to come down with a dorky serious response to a light natured post. Congrats.

     
    Phish

    April 21, 2002, 05:57 PM

    Try Milkshape! I find it an extremely easy to use and low level editor, as you say.

    http://www.swissquake.ch/chumbalum-soft/ms3d/

     
    This thread contains 30 messages.
     
     
    Hosting by Solid Eight Studios, maker of PhotoTangler Collage Maker.