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Submitted by zed, posted on November 20, 2001

Image Description, by zed

heres some of the stuff ive been working on the last 2 weeks, not shown is my collision detection/physics research ( though i might dump that and use Russell L. Smith's dynamics library ODE which looks very promising ) anyways the above shots have come about because ive decided to up the minimum requirements for götterdämmerung to at least a hardware t+l card. Im figuring when I finally release götterdämmerung, geforce256's will be the voodoo1's of today :(. As we all know hardware t+l == polygon pusher, but a lot of polygons == lot of storage. so what ive been doing is procedurally generating the models/textures (and sussing out how to do this very fast during runtime) the trees at the top were 'grown' using a variation of 'grammer models' (see cgp+p for a description) the rocks/wood etc at the bottom are noise generated. the top shot has about 200,000 polys so even my vanta is able to handle it (single digit fps though :( ) which aids testing but I will prolly up the count when I get my hands on a hardware t+l card.

zed zeek
(big page the site will prolly overload just gotta be patient)

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Archive Notice: This thread is old and no longer active. It is here for reference purposes. This thread was created on an older version of the flipcode forums, before the site closed in 2005. Please keep that in mind as you view this thread, as many of the topics and opinions may be outdated.

November 20, 2001, 02:10 PM

Ohh look! I see L-Systems, I see spherical heightmapping, I see procedural textrures. I see a lack of alpha, I see a lack of shadows, I see a LOT of polys.
I like L-Systems... :)

It would be really cool to get all those leaves to rustle in the wind. (but that would probably drop your FPS from 6.3 to 3.3)

It would also be cool to see an L-System done with bezier patches.

David Olsson

November 20, 2001, 02:51 PM

What algorithm did you use to apply the textures on the models ?


November 20, 2001, 02:53 PM

so many leaves ...

aaaarrrrgggggghhhhhhhh (like when homer simpson sees a donut)



Corey O'Connor

November 20, 2001, 03:23 PM

Brain melty. That describes it all.


November 20, 2001, 03:23 PM

"the top shot has about 200,000 polys so even my vanta is able to handle it (single digit fps though :( ) which aids testing but I will prolly up the count when I get my hands on a hardware t+l card."

A GeForce 256 isn't that fast. NVIDIA's site says 10 million polygons per second, which is 250,000 at 60 FPS under ideal circumstances.



November 20, 2001, 03:29 PM

I'm sorry but what does that horrible sounding name of your engine mean in English?


Mr. Slomo

November 20, 2001, 03:33 PM

götterdämmerung is german, but i think i can't tell you exactly what it means in english. just wait for the author to tell us, what he wanted to say with ist and then i'll tell you how i would have translated it. ; )

Lion V

November 20, 2001, 03:38 PM

Goddammit ???

L-Sytems ? wozzat ?

leaves look nice.
Tree geometrys nice too
bark looks flat tho
some of the rocks look very nice geometry wise, but you need to drop the specular values.

William Dahlberg

November 20, 2001, 03:59 PM

Sweeet trees!


November 20, 2001, 04:49 PM

götterdämmerung, roughly translated, means 'god dawn' So I'm guessing it actually means something like 'Holy Dawn'


November 20, 2001, 04:50 PM

'Götterdämmerung' translated means (according to my Longman (Langenscheidt) dictionary) 'twilight of the gods'
it's a german word, but its origin lies in the nordic mythology


November 20, 2001, 04:52 PM

"Götterdämmerung" is an opera by Richard Wagner, the theme
is "Der Ring des Nibelungen" (Ring of the Nibelungen).
Pretty cool and old story.
Your forrest looks cool though!

Peter Mackay

November 20, 2001, 05:10 PM

Shame, it looks like it translates to something slightly more unsavoury!


November 20, 2001, 06:07 PM

Ahh, Wagner's Ring cycle. Well worth the 17 hours over three days. If anybody ever gets the chance make the effort to see it. San Francisco used to do it every 3 years or so and PBS filmed the Philli Philharmonic's production of it about 12-13 years ago. In fact I believe theres already a game out there based on it.

Mike Taylor

November 20, 2001, 06:16 PM

Tron was right. It is the twilight of the gods. It is an old opera by Wagner. Damn good if you have the patience for the whole thing. It is the fourth part of the Ring of the Nibelung cycle. If you don't have the patience for the whole 18 hour opera, you can just watch the Bugs Bunny version.

(Sorry this got off topic. BTW, I was wondering if anyone had an L-system based tree model that had LOD built into the L-system analysis. I always wanted to research a way of generating the LOD info for a tree as it is being generated, and figure that would be a far better method that just making the whole damn thing, then running over it with quadric error or some other LOD scheme.)

-Mike Taylor

Pierre Terdiman

November 20, 2001, 06:22 PM

götterdämmerung (german)
= crépuscule des Dieux (french)
= Ragnarok (original)

The Wagner opera is actually a total rip of the original icelandic Volsunga Saga (with "Sigurdr" instead of "Siegfried", etc). Ok, not a rip, say a rewrite :)


zed zeek

November 20, 2001, 06:26 PM

actually thats what i originally thought it meant when i heard it first. even though daemmerung means dusk/twilight ie 'twilight of the gods' which does have a nice ring. 'damnation of the gods' sounds better. then again i might use 'godverdomme' of just 'gotver' for short :)


November 20, 2001, 06:26 PM

(Sorry this got off topic. BTW, I was wondering if anyone had an L-system based tree model that had LOD built into the L-system analysis.

You could make it a part of the generating grammar. Instead of storing the generated symbols at a given level of detail (i.e. iteration) as a linear list of symbols, you could encode it as a sort of parse tree. This should allow you to expand and collapse the parse tree to increase or decrease LOD, respectively. The problem is that this works on the symbol level. On modern consumer hardware, you are probably better off using VIPM with QEM.

Mike Taylor

November 20, 2001, 06:36 PM

That's what I had figured. The only tricky part is getting actual metrics for precisely when to enpand or contract the tree. I agree VIPMs are more efficeint on modern hardware, but it doesn't really allow you to just store the grammer for any given tree in the extremely compressed form of just grammer symbols. It even less allows for random grammers. With those, whole forests could be made on the fly. They can't be VIPMed because of the preprocessing overhead of VIPMs, so being able to shoot out a reletively inexpensive test per level of grammer of when to increase LOD could be a major step towards generating vast realtime 3D forests for things such as MMORPGs. And it is something different to do for terrains. It feels like everything in terrains has already been done, and it would be nice to find something new.

-Mike Taylor

zed zeek

November 20, 2001, 06:47 PM

i havet finalised this yet.
but LOD i do like so.
i build the tree at the highest level (this is very quick to generate) and as the distance increases the less leaves/twigs get drawn.

depending on the linear distance like the code below determines how many leaves /twigs get drawn.
VECTOR vec( tree.pos - camPOS );
float dist = LENGTHOFVECTOR( vec );
num *= (leaves_end-dist) / (leaves_end-leaves_start);

the secret is to organize the leaves/twigs that they start dropping off in an even fashion eg first one on the left of the tree then one on the right + then one in the middle etc. this works very well (esp from a person walking on the grounds eyelevel) provided that leavesend+start are well choosen. see my page the first shot of the trees at the horizen there is less leaves/branches (low values for leavesend+start choosen because of my card)

from what ive seen VIPM wont work very good for trees.

zed zeek

November 20, 2001, 06:50 PM

you killed the rabbit you killed the rabbit.
though the bugs bunny version has pieces of flying dutchman, tristan + isolde as well as the ring.
about the LOD check my answer below.


November 20, 2001, 06:50 PM

How did you get ODE to compile? Did you do it on VC6? I've tried various stuff, and I think my MSCV install hasn't registered all its DLLs so when I like call cl.exe from make it doesnt work right, ODE looks very cool too :)
And nice job on your project, looks sweet.

zed zeek

November 20, 2001, 06:55 PM

the rustling of the leaves costs next to nothing speed wise (a few matrix mults per tree). even though the effect aint 100percent accurate (more like 0percent) it looks far better than having static leaves

zed zeek

November 20, 2001, 07:04 PM

yes compiled it on vc6, u just need to fiddle around with it a bit esp that demo with the car and the ramp (great fun). im not to sure exactally what i did to get the examples to work. at the moment im playing around with my own stuff (oh er) but will more seriously into ODE later on if im not happy with what im doing.


November 20, 2001, 07:58 PM

The leaves look cool.Nice camera angle you took for the screenshot.


November 20, 2001, 10:23 PM

My favorite book series, "The Gap Cycle" by Stephen R. Donaldson, was also based on the theme, but translated into a sci-fi space setting. Awesome characters, awesome story, awesome everything. I highly recommend it, as it's only 5 books long and written better than most of the crap they're putting out nowadays.



November 21, 2001, 02:06 AM

When Elmer says it, it's more like 'wabbit' than 'rabbit'. :P


November 21, 2001, 04:40 AM

Cool looking stuff and now it's offline :) Wonder what they did in Yahoo.

Anyway, amazing, me thinks.


November 21, 2001, 06:04 AM

The down shot is nice, and the trees too; nice work :)
- "Whose engine is it ?"
- "Zed..."
- "Who's Zed ?"
- "Zed's dead baby, Zed's dead..."


November 21, 2001, 07:15 AM

It's too dark !

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