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Submitted by William Garrison, posted on January 11, 2001




Image Description, by William Garrison



This is a capture from "Node" a demo created by myself and "Tronster" (http://www.tronster.com), then submitted to the COMA2 demo competition. (http://www.crosswinds.net/~coma2/indexe.htm)

This shot is part of the ending scene and was generated using my GeoGL library, which is a simple library for drawing and managing objects in 3D space. The image in the corner is slightly later in the demo, and is the only use I've ever had for 1D textures. :) The source code for GeoGL and to our demo are available at http://www.mobydisk.com/mobyware/geogl.html

You can see the other entries to COMA2 at ftp://ftp.scene.org/pub/parties/2000/coma00


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Archive Notice: This thread is old and no longer active. It is here for reference purposes. This thread was created on an older version of the flipcode forums, before the site closed in 2005. Please keep that in mind as you view this thread, as many of the topics and opinions may be outdated.
 
DrPetter

January 12, 2001, 03:38 PM

Firstly:
The shot is cool, I have always liked demos (demo-party-style, not game-demos...). I had a bunch for my A1200 and ran them WAY too many times... (I especially liked BRAINCELL, very cool, though I can't remember who made it...)
Anyway, I'll certainly download it and have a look at it in a running state.

Secondly:
Hey BAXTON, why don't you update your personal info, so that we can see who you are? (I mean, 255- sounds a little bit silly for an age, doesn't it?)
If you're some kind of at-least-half-serious FlipCode user, then you should bother with entering at least your age, but preferably all fields (email, homepage, etc...)

OK, that's the only stuff I'm going to contribute to this stupid messageflood. I hope we all can have a silent agreement about how stupid they are and just ignore them when then feel like "expressing" themselves with off topic mess:s in the IOTD.

PUNKT SLUT!

 
Catalyst

January 12, 2001, 07:19 PM

Uhh....no seriously, this really IS a geForce only demo cos i tried to run it on my v3 2000 pci card and it crashes (i have the latest drivers). i had to use the opengl32.dll file from WickedGL in order to get it to work, and even then half the textures werent showing up cos of incompatibilities. I think it's stupid that developers should target the cards they "feel like" targeting. What the hell. I buy a video card that lasts me 6 months, and then something else comes out and all games from that point on support only _that_ new card. Wow. I really made a great investment there didnt i? should've waited right? NO! All you "programmers" and "31337 h4x0r5" should put a little more effort into your finished products so that they support as much hardware as possible w/o making critical sacrifices. After all, it IS OpenGL. It's supposed to make crossplatform software and multiple hardware support EASY, and this demo just kinda chucks it away. But still, of what i got to see (minus textures and all), it was pretty kewl.

 
flight

January 12, 2001, 08:15 PM

Kurt is there any way to put a moderation system into the forums?

 
biff_henderson

January 12, 2001, 08:21 PM

love the capacitors all twisted at an angle (or whatever they are, them small cylinders).

the word threesome conjures up mixed emotions in me, depending on the third party involved.

so i got something out of your iotd, very cool and thanks for taking the time to post it.

 
Ant

January 12, 2001, 08:42 PM

Pretty cool demo. It jammed on the Raedon so it's not just Geforce. It probably just works better on D3D cards.

fenris: ditto
bgl: "Surronded by fools!" LOL!

 
Ogotay

January 12, 2001, 09:11 PM

There were some people claiming that this demo is Geforce only. Since the authors themselves don't seem to say anything about it, one of us non-Geforce owners should. I have a TnT2 card and this Demo runs without any problems on my computer. However if I read right the only people that said "this is Geforce only" had a Voodoo x card or something, that's why I suppose it's rather an nvidia-3dfx related problem...

 
fluffy

January 12, 2001, 09:29 PM

It's not GeForce only, it's just "not Voodoo-compatible." This is because the Voodoo only supports 256x256 textures. THAT SAID, OpenGL only specifies that an implementation support 64x64 textures - an application MUST, to be considered OpenGL-compatible, still run on hardware which only supports 64x64 textures. You cannot assume that the driver will take care of it, either - it is up to the application to query the maximum texture size and downsample the textures as necessary, if necessary.

BTW, I don't see why 1D textures were required for the lightburst through the chip, especially since that means having to upload a new texture for every slice. Why not just use the same t coordinate on the chip-side and infinity-side edges of the quad so that it can just slice through the original texture (or a modified version thereof)? Seems that'd be much simpler to do.

Nice work for an objectshow, at least based on the screenshot; I might try the demo out (on my Matrox G400), though ever since demos started to just be flythroughs of polygonal environments I pretty much lost interest in them (I mean, where's the code? Rendering a scenegraph isn't really that hard.)

 
Louis Howe

January 13, 2001, 12:54 AM

This is a really cool image. It certainly has a unique "retro-ish" look to it, and the world geometry is certainly very detailed. Great job, and very impressive!

 
bit64

January 13, 2001, 04:25 AM

"most stupidest" is the most stupidest thing posted on this forum.

 
Blaze

January 13, 2001, 01:10 PM

Actually you finished as #102, dumb ass :)

 
Blaze

January 13, 2001, 01:19 PM

Your card is definately more than 6 months old

 
headcracker

January 13, 2001, 02:16 PM

it really whips the llamas ass :o)

 
SirKnight

January 13, 2001, 04:45 PM

I have have to agree with headcracker on this one. :) 3D graphics of inside of a computer is always cool. I need to get my engine and particle sys up and going so i can post it here.

-Snyper

 
Catalyst

January 13, 2001, 08:10 PM

well, its a 3d accelarator, isnt it? not some cheapo ATI card or and S3 hack, but a good 3dfx card. it does d3d, and it does gl. so whats the deal with writing for a specific gl driver instead of writing for a generic gl driver that is supported by all gl enabled cards?

 
Catalyst

January 13, 2001, 08:13 PM

Well in that case, 3dfx sux! Then again, I knew that from the start. I just didn't have enough money for a tnt2 or something else at the time so i got a voodoo3 2000 for $60 instead. thanks for finally telling me why it is that my gl drivers dont work.

 
Moby Disk

January 13, 2001, 10:03 PM

I guess the message should have mentioned somewhere that mobydisk = William Garrison. :)

This is not a GeForce only demo. I have seen it run on GeForce 256, GeForce 2 MTS(is that it?), a TNT2, a Matrox G400, and on software. If there is a problem with Voodoo 3s, perhaps someone could email me and say exactly what happens. Unfortunately, I don't have one to try it on.

The demo MIGHT use textures bigger than 256x256 (I think the motherboard texture is all), so it might not run on older cards. It should be easy for Tronster's texture loader to scale the larger images down to 256x256. Which cards have this limitation?

 
fluffy

January 14, 2001, 01:22 AM

Huh, I thought the fact that Voodoo sucks was common knowledge by now. ;) Here's a hint: the Voodoo3 is really just a bunch of Voodoo1s on a single chip and a RAMDAC which applies a gaussian blur to the output (which is where their whole "22-bit color" bullshit comes from). The Voodoo1 architecture was pretty good in its scalability and ability to have a bunch of cores running in parallel (the Voodoo2 was two Voodoo1s on a card - they weren't even in a single chip - and the SLI connector just lets you bridge a card with the two Voodoo1s on another card), and the Voodoo3 is basically just two SLId Voodoo2s on a single chip. Nothing special - 3dfx stopped putting out real engineering and turned into a marketing engine a long time ago, which is probably why now they're out of business.

But the main point to my ramble wasn't that the Voodoo's drivers are broken - they're technically not, and the Voodoo cards DO basically conform to the OpenGL standard (aside from missing the stencil buffer, accumulator buffer, and a number of blend modes); it's the demo which isn't conforming to OpenGL, because it's not handling cards which have smaller max texture sizes correctly. OpenGL only specifies that cards need to support 64x64 textures, and it's up to the software to make sure that it's uploading textures which the hardware can handle for any texture larger than that. The results of not doing that are undefined - in the case of 512x512 textures on a Voodoo, the drivers puke.

 
fluffy

January 14, 2001, 01:29 AM

Moby: All Voodoo cards have that limitation, but it's not just for Voodoos that the software should accomodate crippled hardware, since... well, let me just quote from the OpenGL "Blue Book":

(From page 357 of the Second Edition)
... All implementations support texture images that are at least 64 texels wide.
... All implementations support texture images that are at least 64 texels high.


That is the ONLY guarantee given for texture sizes in OpenGL. For anything larger, it's up to the application to make sure the hardware can handle the texture before uploading it (usually using the PROXY_TEXTURE_2D pseudotarget). Granted, the drivers are supposed to just generate a GL error (and otherwise ignore the erroneous glTexImage call), but it sounds like the code isn't even doing a simple GL_MAX_TEXTURE_SIZE check...

 
Blaze

January 14, 2001, 10:15 AM

Yes, it is a 3d accelerator. But you probably got it cheap anyway, that was the only advantage 3dfx had over nvidia, the PRICE! And usually when you buy a cheap card even if it built by the original and best 3dfx, it's still not perfect and neither is their implementation of openGL.

And i think it was mentioned somewhere, here, that the author probably would have made it work on every card if he had the time and the resources.

 
Tronster

January 14, 2001, 03:27 PM

What I would like to know, is what is happening when you run "Node" on a Voodoo?
When Moby Disk and I tested the demo, we attempted to run it on every board we could find. We are only two people, and hence only have about three boards between us to test the demo on. Before we made the "final release" we tested it on a few other boards, and I could have sworn we fixed Voodoo based problems. I guess not.

What would be a big help to us both is:
(easy) For someone to tell us what happens when you run it on a Voodoo based board.
(medium) Download the source code and tell us where it crashes
(hard) Figure out what the heck we did wrong. =>

If this was going to be a commercial product, it definitly wouldn't have gone out without running on such a mainstream board, but a light QC was performed as it was a quick-and-dirty demo we pulled together at the last moment. We still had the desires to:
1) Make the code use nothing Windows specific, so if we go crazy, one day we can port it to Linux, BeOS, Mac, etc...
2) Not make the effects based on Nvidia's extensions or OpenGL implementation.

 
fluffy

January 14, 2001, 05:07 PM

Well, I believe this question was answered by the number of people on here who have been complaining about it being "GeForce only" (i.e. they're trying to run it on Voodoos). I don't have a Voodoo or any other card with the 256x256 restriction, so my guess is that the >256x256 textures just aren't showing up.

And like I said, what the heck you did wrong is to upload textures larger than 64x64 without checking to make sure it was possible. :) It'd be rather easy to add a check right before you do any glTexImage2D() calls or whatever.

 
Stinger

January 14, 2001, 05:47 PM

QDT

 
Timothy Barnes

January 14, 2001, 09:02 PM

Allright, this is like the 4th or so thread that I've seen the most pointless crap that I've ever seen. I think I'll keep my screenshots to myself. :)

For all who know me, yes, I've seen some really damn pointless crap that even I can't create. :)

 
Catalyst

January 14, 2001, 11:01 PM

well that's fine with me as long as i dont get the reply of "your card is shit, go buy a geforce 2 for $999999999". if i ever get to making a good game i will make sure it will work even on crappy cards. the more cards it works on, the more people have access to the product! saves them money. and if i dont have to make any compromise to do that, then that just shows of my skillz!

 
Catalyst

January 14, 2001, 11:03 PM

i am well aware of the architecture of my video card , thank you -_-

 
fluffy

January 15, 2001, 12:20 AM

Gravis Ultrasound only demo eh? What's the deal with that!? Next we're gonna have Gravis Ultrasound only games on the market. How about giving the SoundBlaster Pro users a break here!

Windows only demo eh? What's the deal with that!? Next we're gonna have Windows only games on the market. How about giving the DOS users a break here!

Pentum only demo eh? What's the deal with that!? Next we're gonna have Pentium only games on the market. How about giving the 486 users a break here!

I guess it's nice to see that the PC demo scene really hasn't changed at all lately, when you come right down to it...

 
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